What happened to bitcoin-24.com?

Bad: Licensing, Data leak, Password security, Accounting, DB integrity and Float arithmetic.
Donations: bc1qh7dsnwc6cm2quphv75jwf9qspglrg4emkenha3
1FRtMfmL1cbL7ce9BTvDYvvATpuvi5USJv No BTC?


Refund Forum closing down

The forums at bitcoin24-victims are closing down because the hoster apparently removed support for the software. The plan is to move to discord


Bitcoin24 and Corona Virus

Who would have thought... seven years later and there are still things happening around Bitcoin24. The refund effort started by Jeff has made slow, steady progress over the years and provided infrequent updates. The legal stuff seems solved, but the polish bank is working very hard to make sure that everything is in order before releasing any money. Currently yet another document has to be provided, translated and notarized at the embassy in Poland. And the embassy is in lockdown... due to the Corona Virus.


Bitcoin24 down again

The "new" site has been down for around 24 hours now. The cloudflare error is a rather disturbing "SSL handshake failed". I have been told that neither fiat nor bitcoin withdrawals were being processed as of lately, but I have no way of confirming this as I don't use the site.


No more lawyers, new lawyers?

It appears that RDP is no longer mandated by BTC 24 Ltd. With the helpdesk still offline and no news this begs the question if btc24 is still operational in any meaningful way.


The helpdesk license expired again

Yet again, the helpdesk is closed. It's kinda comical.


Forum up again

The forum by the bitcoin24-victims guys is up again. This time they are using a self-hosted solution which can't be taken down as easily as the old one.

Unfortunately the entire post history seems to be lost.


Hooray for vague TOS

The new forum is down right now, "In accordance with Section 25(a)". A nice reminder to read the rules for services you use, like the proboard TOS.

Basically, we can screw you for... ah, whatever, we can screw you whenever we feel like it. Well, it seems to be a free service, so that's not really surprising.


Information leak?

I missed this at first, but the server that serves the old site ( also serves the new site. This looks like an involuntary information leak, as the bitcoin24 server is usually hidden behind cloudflare.

$ host bitcoin-24.com
bitcoin-24.com has address
bitcoin-24.com has address
bitcoin-24.com mail is handled by 10 mail1.bitcoin-24.com.

If you open the IPs in your browser you can confirm they are cloudflare servers.

However, if you access under the hostname bitcoin-24.com you get the new site. You can verify this by adding an entry for bitcoin-24.com in your hosts files for example. I'm also not sure why serving the site isn't limited to cloudflare proxies, but I haven't really worked with cloudflare yet.


Old site is up again

The old bitcoin24 site is apparently up again, and has been at least since the 21st. An IRC user received an email from bitcoin24 support after weeks of questions and was pointed to However, I strongly recommend not to log in or to do anything on the site as it's not available over HTTPS, it could be a phishing site, etc.

The support person also emphasized again that the new LTD is not managing the old site on this IP, even though they use the same ticket system, email addresses etc.

So far, support hasn't answered to inquiries about an HTTPS version.



A few users raised concerns on IRC today because of a few issues.

Insecure ticket system

The ticket system doesn't work properly over HTTPS. So users have to use an unencrypted connection to submit potentially sensitive information. This is quite bad.

Ticket system over HTTPS

No access to old site

On april 18th Simon announced that the old site would be accessible again. After all many users are still waiting for their money to be returned and might want to verify their balances.

No sign of the old site

This might not surprise users though, as delays are something they might have gotten used to.

Insecure mail server

Bitcoin24's mailserver is also acting as a webserver, and it's not secured. This is bad because it opens potential attack vectors.

Mailserver is on open webserver

The entire world doesn't need access to the installed mail software roundcube.

Webmail exposed

This makes it easy to check for the installed version, search for potential exploits, etc. This isn't bad in itself, you have to balance security with usability. But this mailserver handles very sensitive information about customers that only staff needs access to. It should be secured more tightly.

It's somewhat telling that there are no developers or sysadmins on the site's team description. There is a person for "technical support", but that doesn't sound like the team of full time sysadmins and developers an exchange should have.


The "new" bitcoin24 team

Some IRC users were wondering who was behind the "new" bitcoin24 website. There was some speculation that the brand might have been sold, or that Simon was not involved any more. This doesn't seem to be the case, as he is listed as a company director/board member on here.

Bit Revolution Ltd

It's a little surprising as Simon isn't listed on the about page.


Misc updates

The bitcoin24 team is apparently busy fixing things I've mentioned a few days ago. Some typos are gone and the shopped office image was replaced.


Bitcoin24 is back

Bitcoin24 is back with a new site, registration is open.

I'm glad to see that bitcoin24 is back and wish them well. Here are some quotes from the site I like.

"We have completel [sic] redesigned our trading engine which is based on an online banking system."


"One year ago we must close Bitcoin-24 because the prosecutors in Poland had seized our bankaccounts in poland without any reason and we still don't know, why they did that."


"Bitcoin-24 makes only winning with the trading fee."


"The safest, fastest and maybe biggest marketplace."


Unfortunately I don't really trade much any more, so I won't be able to use the new, improved, "bigger, stronger & faster then [sic] ever before" bitcoin24 exchange.

Update: An IRC user pointed out that the office photo on the about page is shopped: compare https://bitcoin-24.com/about and this post.


Early april fools' joke?

I'm not sure how long the site has been up, but today I noticed it for the first time. The bitcoin24 site was updated and says "Bitcoin-24 2.0 coming soon" and has a sign up form for news.

Bitcoin-24 2.0?

It's somewhat intriguing.. will somebody try to resurrect the brand? And why? With money still being tied up in litigation, and with the technical things we've seen...

You have to admire the audacity. Or is it just.. I mean, an early april fools' joke?

Other than that, I didn't think there was anything to report in the last four months.



Numerous users have reported that they don't have the SEPA/Wire withdrawal tab (see below). Today, with the official start of the payment phase the problem persists. One user opened a ticket and was told he doesn't need to verify. It's not clear why this was the case. This particular user had used the polish bank.

However, the helpdesk contains a new message:

"We are just waiting for some translations for the Verification Page. I think it will go online later this day."

This probably explains why the announced changes, upload form, etc. aren't online yet.

Edit: One user reported that he opened a ticket and saw the SEPA tab after that.

What the...

Several users report that they can access the new verification page, but it doesn't appear in their menu. This is happening to me as well.

Verification page

If this happens to you, log into your account and visit https://bitcoin-24.com/verification directly.

Unfortunately it's not clear though what happens after you upload documents, if the SEPA tab on the withdrawal page becomes visible if it isn't, etc...

Edit: The missing menu entry was apparently a cache issue, it should be visible now.


Another oddity, the Proof of Identity page says that you should send a "Driver's License, a Passport, or a National ID Card" but that "It must have been issued within the last 3 months." Now, I don't know about you, but I usually get those documents every... ten years or so. It's probably just another mistake like we've seen so many before and should be ignored.

Oopsie 2

Yeah, well, the first uploaders will have to upload their documents one more time, see this announcement.


Best news ever

"We are pleased to inform you that our client has completed all preparations and will start the payments in the amount of 72% of the funds in the respective account from 9 December 2013."

—Statement (EN, DE).

The process of paying out everything will probably take a long time, but I believe this is the best news we have gotten since April 13th.

First problems

Oh well, that didn't take too long. Several IRC users report that they don't have the option to withdraw via SEPA/wire. As you can see in the screenshot a tab is missing:

Withdrawal problem

This is what it looks like for me:

No (obvious) withdrawal problem


New statements in helpdesk

There's a new official news channel. The helpdesk is now apparently being used as a place to publish official news. I hope the licensing is fixed for real this time.


Several updates

A new statement has been published on the 11th. Basically, the plan is to proceed with paying each btc24 customer 72% of their funds for now, and the rest when the case in Poland is closed.

The Helpdesk system is back online, the lawyers won't reply to customer requests any more. Simon has hired two new employees this week.

The new forum contains the latest news. Jeff is actually in touch with Simon, please check the threads named Mailing #12 to Mailing #14. Uploading verification documents could start soon.


Helpdesk license expired yet again?

I still find it puzzling that btc24 would use a free trial version of the helpdesk software. After all the tickets are somewhat.. important. Anyway.

I'm pretty sure the page just said something like Your free 30 day license has epired a few minutes ago, but now it reads "Take a free 30 day trial and your own Kayako helpdesk could be here in less than 5 minutes.". Oh well, not good either way.


While the bitcoin price soars to record highs RDP publishes a new announcement (EN, DE). A vast majority (82.8%) voted for option 3, but unfortunately it's not clear how many users voted. It's quite possible that many users didn't even know about the vote that was announced two weeks ago and only lasted one week. Option 3 was:

"Payout to all customers of an amount derived from the ratio of 72% (after legitimization of claims and verification of identity)"

Basically, if you want to request a payout you have to submit

  • Copy of a valid passport or personal identification card and a residency registration certificate
  • Current electricity or mobile phone invoice
  • Explanation regarding where the wagered money originates from
  • Assurance that the wagered money originates from legal sources

The statement goes on that btc24 will "only make payouts if these data and documentation are plausible". This means a manual review, so things will probably take a very long time.

As of this writing there was no upload form on the btc24 website yet.


As expected a new statement was published on the RDP website (English, Deutsch). Everybody should read this one. It announces the poll that went live yesterday.

If you have problems logging in or if your account balances are incorrect, contact the lawyers by email. But keep in mind that those things can take some time:

"As we have no access to the system, we are not able to intervene directly ourselves. We have no decision-making authority and due to the technical complexity, we must always consult with our client regarding many enquiries in order to solve individual problems."

The statement continues to explain the necessary verification, that bitcoin24 is responsible for making the payments, and that they themselves are not involved with the legal case in poland.

So, go vote!

The poll itself has also been updated and now says that "Voting will end 04.11.2013 - 18:00 UTC+".


It's alive

Today the poll went online on the bitcoin24 website. The available choices are:

  • No payouts until conclusive release of all monies
  • Once information and file scrutiny shall have been made available, payouts of audited and legitimate claims
  • Payout to all customers of an amount derived from the ratio of 72% (after legitimization of claims and verification of identity)

At the moment it's appears like no notification mails were sent out. My guess is that RDP will issue another press release. In line with patterns observed earlier the poll page also says "The poll will be available until Voting will end 04.10.2013 - 18:00 UTC+1". Let's assume this is a typo as that date is in the past.

Read the discussion in the new forums.

Update: The third poll option was changed during the night and now reads

  • Payout to all customers of an amount derived from the ratio of 72% (after legitimization of claims and verification of identity). The remaining amounts will be payed out once the seizure of the Polish account is lifted.

This question had come up in the forum. The date hasn't been fixed though.

Who gets to vote?

User Dan asked me in the comments if I had the option to vote. As I already got all my coins and fiat out of btc24 I really shouldn't have a vote. But yes, if my case is the rule all previous customers get a vote, even those who aren't concerned any more.


"Word has reached me that RDP was planning to release their polling system this friday. While it remains to be seen if they can do that, I took initiative and already sent them the letter."

—Jeff via email

Apparently things start to move. If the voting with regard to cash payout starts that would be some really good news, at last.

Come back later for today's hangout url.

Edit: Hangout at https://plus.google.com/hangouts/_/661267aee9a9290f4fd0768b7e970a78fb120ec0?hl=en (sorry for posting it so late)


Another mail was sent out by the btc24-victims group. They have significantly increased the number of people and assets they represent. This is what they write about the upcoming Google Hangout:

"Regarding the upcoming Google Hangout, the URL to the meeting will be sent by e-mail moments prior the event tomorrow. It will also be posted on the forum located here: http://bitcoin24-support.boards.net/board/1/btc24-english-discussions

Registration is free and I suggest everyone to join and get connected.

This especially is important due to the fact we’re dealing with a lot of money and interests. Since I’ve received the request to keep the names and sums confidential I have not shared the names and sums with anyone. They are still 100% safe and in my posession only.

Should things go from bad to worse, this forum will be the best way to stay organised. So I’ll say it again, join the forum today. "


You can also use btc24.refund AT gmail.com to get in touch.


"Dear BTC24-victims,

First of all, thank you for subscribing en masse to btc24.refund and my sympathy for the vast amount of money that is being held hostage/confiscated.

The counter currently stands on: 51 victims with a total sum of €499.087,- *฿*596,- and $8070.

Taken into account this initiative has been launched 4 days ago, I hope we'll cross the 750k mark before upcoming thursday. I can't stress enough to spread the word. Feel free to broadcast this on any medium you see fit. The more people supporting this official letter, the more impact it will have on RDP.

As for our strategy, the planning currently will be to send the official letter after upcoming Google Hangout, which will be Thursday 24th starting at 20:00 central european time. Can't make it? No problem. Usually people will stay there the entire evening. It will be our way of getting together and getting organised. Even when there's nothing to discuss, it's good to stay in touch.

There has been questions about the ratio RDP will use to payout its victims. Rough estimates vary from 50% to 75%. RDP has not been clear on the payout ratio and I suspect this has been done on purpose in the event lawyer costs are rising and Simon cannot pay for it anymore. Logically, our money would be up next to pay for the bills. This is one of the reasons why I want my money out of there as soon as possible. Ofcourse, besides the fact that we're waiting over 6 months which is a terrible tragedy.

Furthermore, paying out a ratio does not mean Simon can forfeit the remaining 50% to 25%. RDP has stated in their statement on writing that the full 100% will be paid out whenever this Polish incident is resolved.

One subscriber has offered his help into translating the english letter into german which will be a great help to our cause. Upcoming friday I will send the letter in english and in german through registered post to the lawfirm RDP. I will also e-mail them our official reply to their statement. There will be no way of denying having received our decision.

Finally, more people will subscribe. Whenever a substantial amount has subscribed, I will sent another mail/e-mail to the lawfirm.

Later on this week I will send the URL to the Google Hangout so you can join instantly.

In the meantime, don't worry too much or do anything silly like jumping off a bridge. We'll get our money back, I'm sure of it!

Regards, Jeff"

—Latest email from bitcoin refund


A result of yesterday's hangout was posted. The participants, who represent a low six figures USD sum have drafted a letter to the btc24 lawyers. The more signatures the better.

People who can't post to the forums can also send an email to btc24.refund AT gmail.com. Please include your name and the amount of money stuck in btc24.

Update I just received an email that around a dozen former btc24 users have joined the effort today. This means that there are more than twenty supporters by now.


New Forums

I received various reports that the btc24help forums are not maintained any more and new accounts never get approved. A new one has been opened at boards.net. I am not affiliated with this effort in any way, but wanted to spread the word.

A user also organized a google hangout which is running right now (8p.m. CET). I have neither camera nor microphone on the box I'm sitting at, but will write an update later if there are any significant updates.


New statement

A new statement is available on the bitcoin-24 website in English and German.

After a quick scan: it doesn't look too good. I don't have the time right now to write more about it.


New statement

After almost a month we get another update. No good news, no real news at all.

"Unfortunately, there is no notable news from Poland.


Payments [to Commerbank customers without trading activities] are still currently in progress, but are being processed very rapidly.


The Polish authorities are declining to permit our Polish colleagues further scrutiny of the files.


Without the issues prevailing in Poland, the situation for our client’s customers would presumably have been resolved long ago, and all payouts would have been concluded."

—The new statement (DE)

So for unknown reasons the polish lawyers can't inspect the files, the polish authorities look bad here. But I don't see how them behaving differently would have led to everything being paid back if the payments that can already be made haven't been concluded yet...


Not so great news

The bitcoin24 lawyers posted another update. People who sent money to the polish account are out of luck for the moment:

"We now have the decision of the Polish Public Prosecutor’s Office, from which it is apparent that the seizure will not be upheld in relation to a large proportion of the money involved. But unfortunately this also means that a part of the money continues to be sequestered.


Before payments can now be made from the Polish account, those accounts subject to the suspicion of illegal use must be first clearly identified.


Payments to customers with no connection to the suspected suspicious activities of individual users may then be made when the Polish Public Prosecutor’s Office makes it possible to identify the suspicious accounts involved."

—Today's statement

It sounds like this will take quite some time to be resolved. And after that they payouts have to be processed, which will take even more time. It's good that things are moving forward but I think this isn't the news most international users were hoping for.

We don't know either what will happen to people who sent money to the polish account and traded with it. As far as I know only money that was never used for trading was refunded from the Commerzbank account, so the same could be true for the polish bank?

There's a little more info in the statement about Commerzbank and bitcoin payments and the ticket system. As usual, you should read the full statement.


I Got my money back

The transfer from bitcoin24 just arrived in my account. To sum it up:

  1. I transferred funds on 11.04. to the german Commerzbank account
  2. Bitcoin24 closed on 12.04., so I never had the opportunity to trade
  3. Today I received a little more than my account balance at bitcoin24 showed, the transaction fees were not deducted

So all is well for me, but it's a little disconcerting that after seeing Odd account balances I received slightly more than what was in my account. I can only hope that everybody else will be as fortunate as me, and that it won't take another three months for them.


Withdrawal process

So approximately one month after € withdrawals were announced I received the email from the bitcoin24 lawyer. It asked for some personal information and confirmed the amount I had wired to the Commerzbank account.

I replied immediately with the necessary information and the next day I received an email saying that SEPA withdrawals were now enabled for me on bitcoin24. So I went to the bitcoin24 site, logged in and accessed the SEPA withdrawal page.

It has an eye-catching notice:

"Please make sure, that you only withdraw the amount which is written in the email from Röhl, Dehm & Partner. If you withdraw more, we can not proceed your withdrawal."

Ok, if you say so... it's just that the € balance displayed on bitcoin24 was smaller than the sum mentioned in the email due to SEPA fees (I presume). I had to add a new bank account before doing the actual withdrawal and then... yeah.. didn't think so.

Withdrawal error

Well, the obvious fix seems to be to lower my withdrawal to what the site displays as my balance.

Withdrawal succeeds

That seems to have worked. I'll have to wait and see if the money shows up on my bank account.

All in all it looks like this whole mess could be finished for me. It doesn't really surprise me that the final instructions were faulty. shrug

Withdrawal confirmed

The withdrawal was confirmed by email the same day I requested it.

Withdrawal confirmed

Yeah, no

Somebody should update the bitcoin24 template:

<title>Bitcoin-24 - Biggest Euro Bitcoin Exchange</title>

Those days are long gone.


New statement

"In summary, it can be stated that both Bitcoins as well as initial monies shall continue to be paid out. The next big step must now be securing clearance specific to the Polish account; unfortunately, we have less influence over this than we would like, and we can, therefore, also not specify a time at which this will occur."

—New statement from the lawyer (EN, DE)

The document also explains the differences for users of the German and Polish accounts, you should read it.


First € withdrawal reported

Kj1 is the first to report that he got his € back.


No email? Check your gmail spam

I'm not really sure when this text was added to the lawyer's website, but I'll translate it for all the people who don't speak German:

"To all btc-24.com cusomers with gmail addresses: We were informed several times lately that our emails were sorted into the Google GMail spam folder. Please check your spam folder and mark our mails as "not spam". Thank you"

Lawyer's statement, rough translation by me


First € withdrawal mails reported

User Kj1 reports that he received an email from bitcoin24 asking for some personal information. After sending those he got the following reply:

"Success! We saved your withdraw into the database. We need about 3-6 business days for the payment!"

Bitcointalk post

So.. maybe I will get such an email soon, maybe I won't. Maybe the whole ticket database was lost when the license expired. Maybe it's only that nobody cares about or reads any tickets.

I also still get messages about missing BTC withdrawals, and it looks like nobody can process any tickets...


License has expired!

Bitcoin24's kayako license has expired yesterday. This is probably just another instance of the... competency we've seen at display several times. Still a little unsettling, but it will probably be fixed somewhen. Bitcoin24 used kayako's ticket system as their "Contact" page.

Bitcoin24 kayako license expired

Update 2012-06-14: Ticket system is back. Only took five business days...


Edit june 12th: Oops, had forgotten to post about this, but there was another announcement on june 6th. It just said that withdrawal preparations will take more than a week...


Unsubstantiated suspicions and EUR withdrawal

"As we expected, the seizure of the German accounts has been lifted by the Public Prosecutor's Office in Berlin. This means that the suspicions concerning our client in relation to the alleged fraud and money laundering could not be substantiated."

—Today's statement (EN, DE)

EUR should be paid out soon to customers who used the german bank account and couldn't trade any BTC yet. That shouldn't be too many people, but other users should follow later. Read the announcement for all the details. So good news for a lucky few right now, hopefully including myself.


One more security thing

I've become accustomed to technical deficiencies and insecurities, but today was another incident. As tweeted the bitcoin24 website went down for a while.

During this downtime I checked the IP of the server behind cloudflare directly [2]. I found the bitcoin24 server's web root that included several domain roots.

Bitcoin24 web root

The obfuscated subdomain seems to be the admin app for bitcoin-24.com and is accessible now that the server is up again through that domain, but a login is required.

The most interesting part for me was the bitcoin24 error log. It shows a long list of undefined variables ($sum_eur, $sum_btc, $what) and array indices (password, submit, amount, fegenerales, user, key) and mysql-related errors like mysql_fetch_assoc() expects parameter 1 to be resource, boolean given in ... and mysql_num_rows() expects parameter 1 to be resource, boolean given in ....

Those are just PHP warnings but seem to reinforce the notion that the code behind bitcoin24 isn't exactly top notch. The admin app's logs were also accessible and contained warnings for undefined indices like password_admin, cookie_auth_admin, username_admin.

The private SSL certificate was also visible but had the proper permissions so I couldn't download it. I could only find a few visitor IPs, around ten, as only error logs were available.

So all in all a bad server configuration and a few entry points. Not a catastrophy though, as apparently no source code [1], SSL certificates or significant number of visitor IPs were leaked.


Copy of a witness summons

A user on bitcointalk has posted a PDF that looks like a scan of an official summons of a witness from the Berlin police.

A few things are midly interesting:

  • October 25th 2012 is listed as the date of the offense (fraud)
  • Around 2.5 million € were frozen to enable victims to make their claims in civil court
  • The following 35 questions sound like the prosecution wants a confirmation of previous statements. They are very detailed, how the site worked, how bitcoin and fiat were handled, how trading happened, who was involved, etc.

I hope somebody will translate the questions, I don't have the time at the moment.


Announcement announced yet again, for this friday

Yeah, well, the weekly announcements never happened... but it looks like we'll get something (German) this week at least.


New statement from the lawyer

The new announcement (English, German) basically repeats what we already know. We have to wait longer:

  • Regarding fiat withdrawal there might be news next week as the prosecutors take their time
  • Tickets are being processed, albeit slowly due to the high number
  • Customers who haven't gotten their BTC withdrawal yet should contact the lawyer

So nothing surprising, but it's good to get an update anyway.


€ Deposits should all be processed

"All EUR sepa deposits are processed and added to your balance, if yours is still missing create a support ticket with the used reference."


According to scalability-junk € deposits for both the german and polish accounts have been processed. Other currencies should follow.


Bitcoin24 trademark

Initially I didn't think the tweet about bitcoin24 registering a trademark was newsworthy, but ikbenwouter found a link with more info. This doesn't really mean anything for the current case though.

New announcement from bictoin24 lawyer

A new document is posted on the bitcoin24 website in English and German. You should go and read it, it talks mostly about BTC withdrawal, bank accounts and proceedings.

From the summary:

"Our client would like to act immediately, however, this is not possible as official measures were taken whose reversal again requires an official verification. This takes time and is not within our client's the sphere of influence."

Lawyer's statement

Transaction history

The transaction history is available again, but only for trades before the site closed. This was tweeted.

Preliminary conclusion

After today it looks like my initial motivation for writing this post is more or less gone. At last we get regular updates thanks to the lawyers and scalability-junk's tweets. They aren't 100% official as he's just a volunteer, but he's in touch with Simon. I had a small conversation with him and asked:

"just wondering, but when you write stuff like "BTC withdrawals can take more than 24h (sorry to those waiting)" is that coming from simon or do you make that up to react to stuff you've seen?"

"I try to use the short statements from simon and the current events to form infos for the users. [...] posting only simon statements would look like: yeah, no. prosecution poland wednesday :D"

IRC conversation

I will focus on really major updates from now on and not write about each small detail or tweet. The information we get is still not ideal, but if you have any questions you can try to:

  1. Open a support ticket
  2. Ask scalability-junk in the IRC chat. Keep in mind he's a volunteer and not the bitcoin24 support.


Current status

There seems to be an increasing number of people reporting missing BTC withdrawals. The hotwallet hasn't seen any significant movement in days. Tickets remain unanswered. Fiat account balances still aren't correct. No updates on twitter either.

The bitcoin24 website still has [3] a... well... false statement on it.

"All withdrawals will be done manually within 24 Hours."



Rumors of fiat withdrawal

Casimir1904 reports that he got an email from Simon with news about fiat withdrawal.

"looks good for release of fiat money soon [...] but in short he said it looks good that they will release soon and the lawyer will make another statement on monday/tuesday"

Casimir1904 in IRC

A few minutes later TheAviator confirmed this:

"got a long message from Simon [...] seems to go into a good direction [...] there will be an official lawyer announcement on monday or tuesday [about fiat withdrawal, nkuttler]"

TheAviator in IRC

He also mentioned that Simon is apparently working on relaunching the site, with a new backoffice.

Later the same is also announced on the official twitter account:

"We will release an official statement from our lawyers on Monday/Tuesday about the latest progress."

Bitcoin24 twitter


Security Worst Case Scenario

Yesterday on May 1st [4] an IRC user named ghash reported that Simon had used the same username/password combination on many sites. Simon's default username and password were leaked in 2010. His password was a single word that can be found in any dictionary.

This is a worst case scenario security-wise. I was able to log into several sites using his credentials, but a helpful IRC user called scalability-junk had already changed the passwords on many other sites by then to protect the accounts.

In a professional environment you should at least use secure passwords, and a different one for every service. In a message Simon sent me he said that he used this username/password combination only for unimportant sites, and that the leak was a long time ago. But Simon was still using the same account info a few months back when he registered on reddit and IRC for example. He also used reddit as the only official communications channel for a few days after the site was closed.

It looks like Simon and everybody using his bitcoin exchange got lucky and nobody managed to find this information in time to cause more harm. I wanted to leave some gambling money in bitcoin24 if the site ever went up again, even after hearing about the other technical shortcomings. But this was the last straw.

Statement concerning cooperation with prosecution

A new statement confirming yesterday's news appears on the bitcoin24 website:

"Today we will able to communicate and discuss the current accusations against BTC 24 with the prosecution in Berlin. We have offered the prosecution full collaboration. The same is true for the prosecution in Gorzow. There we are also expecting progress in the near future. Once all our accounts are fully accessible and available, we will immediately start to continue all business activities."


Twitter updates

IRC user scalability-junk reports that he will publish news coming from Simon on the official bitcoin24 twitter account from now. It's not clear at this moment if this means that TheAviator won't provide updates any more.

"so to summarize, we have bitcointalk.org, btc24 official website, reddit, twitter, aviator via phone, this chatroom, his lawyers fax & phone, kuttlers website, btc24help forum"

BitChaos on the confusing news policy


Bitcoin24 out of BTC?

Update The hotwallet has been refilled!

The known bitcoin24 wallets are empty, but some users still haven't received their BTC it seems. We're waiting for information... as usual.

  1. Hot wallet
  2. Cold wallet
  3. Offline wallet
  4. Donation wallet

Ticket system and SEPA deposits

Bitcoin24 has a ticket system now. Great news.

Several users report that deposits they made shortly before the site closed now appear in their accounts. This hasn't happened for me yet, but it looks like Simon is working on those missing transfers.

Update on fiat withdrawals

According to a post (German) on the btc24-help forums the btc24 lawyers will meet with the prosecutor this week and talk about cash withdrawals.


Where's the dispute button?

Bitcoin24 badly needs a dispute button, or a ticket system, or something. Right now all you can do if you think your balance is incorrect is to write an email. I know that one of my mails hasn't been answered in weeks, so I have little hope anything will ever happen from that.

I doubt Simon has any method to organize complaints or to determine the cause of similar ones, etc. It's certainly nice for some users that they got their BTC back. A few lucky ones only had BTC in their account, so for them this drama ends.

Some users also have all their fiat money accounted for, but where are all the missing deposits? It's understandable that they don't show up because the accounts were frozen, but we need an official statement when they will be processed or refunded.

My BTC arrived

Good news for me, my BTC arrived at last.


Odd account balances

Apparently I'm not the only one.

Odd account balances

When this whole mess started I wasn't sure what to think of it. At first I wanted to know that Simon was still in Germany. He is, and I don't think he did anything fraudulent intentionally.

But right now I'm afraid one of my initial suspicions could be right. That the accounting bug that was acknowledged or a similar one were indeed much older and had already been abused in the past.

Or maybe something went wrong when the supposedly buggy trades were rolled back. We'll see.

"he messed up more with the rollback... i have now negative 34 btc, someone else got the btc back who selled to me... so -68 btc for simon only from me..."

Casimir1904 speculating about balances

More negative BTC balances

Odd account balances

"I know for sure that i'm not paying for those 20BTC, i just want the money back that's on the account and another 700€ that i sent to the Commerzbank account two days before the site went down, and then i'm out. I'll keep an eye on your blog for any updates you may post."

—Email I received

Odd account balances

"When the Btc24 web interface was shut down, trading through the API was still possible for a while. During this time Imanaged to sell off some of my BTC, but left about 30BTC that shouldstill be on my account."

—Email I received

Many successful withdrawals reported

It looks like many people got their BTC out of bitcoin24. Good news! Let's hope the unresolved issues get fixed as well.


BTC withdrawal today

As announced on the bitcoin24 website BTC withdrawal seems to be possible since today. There are a few reports about inconsistent account numbers. My own BTC and € amount are both wrong for example. It wasn't completely unexpected as I wired money into my account right before the freeze and tried to withdraw some after it. Still, everbody should check their balances.


Another article about bitcoin24 is published (Google English) on heise.de.


BTC withdrawal soon?

According to TheAviator Simon has said [5] that he will get permission to release BTC soon. TheAviator has been confirmed by Simon as some kind of spokesperson. Sounds like good news, but we'll have to see... We had a similar announcement on the 16th and nothing has happened since then.

New info from the bitcoin24 lawyer

A new document is published [6] on the bitcoin24 site. Key points:

  • The german and polish bank accounts were frozen by prosecutors
  • The money is stuck on those accounts
  • The lawyer disagrees with the assertion in the Bundesanzeiger (see below) that people have to sue bitcoin24 to get their money back
  • They still don't even know what Simon/bitcoin24 is accused of (!)
  • BTC withdrawal should be possible soon

It's great to see some official news!

What I find really interesting about this is that the prosecution allows BTC withdrawal. To me this is a very strong sign that the case against Simon can't be about money laundering, as withdrawing BTC would enable exactly that.


There may be a read-only version of bitcoin24 soon, so that users can verify their account balances. We'll see.

Publication in the Bundesanzeiger

The Bundesanzeiger published a document [7] from the Berlin prosecution office. The document confirms that around 2.5 Million Euro were confiscated. It says that the confiscation and it's publication enables Tatverletzte (victims basically) to claim their funds through the legal system, which the prosecutor "strongly recommends". This can of course cost money, and there's no guarantee to get your money anyway. And the document speaks of a time limit, creating a sense of urgency.

Even as somebody who is very critical of bitcoin24 I think this document is a travesty. It speaks of victims, when there was no conviction or even indictment yet. The presumption of innocence goes right out the window.

We don't know if there was any fraud or if bitcoin24 will be able to reinstate their services.

But people with a significant investment in bitcoin24 might see that differently. Bitcoin24 still hasn't published anything trustworthy that confirms that all the customer funds can be repaid. An affidavit comes to mind.


Apparently an email (English) by Simon's lawyer has been sent out. Nothing new, but contact data for the lawyer.

A little later a similar letter is published (PDF) on the bitcoin24 website [8].


Another document is posted on the bitcoin24 site: a list of things that were confiscated during the search. A few papers concerning the polish bank and 20 500€ bills (PDF, german). Boring.

It is confirmed (English) that TheAviator is in touch with Simon.


In the evening TheAviator writes a post (English) on the btc24-help forums. He claims to be in touch with Simon and repeats the usual stuff, adding in bits of new info. There is absolutely no way to verify the degree of truth of the post.

  1. btc24 offices were searched, but no hardware was confiscated
  2. BTC can't be withdrawn as long as the investigations are ongoing
  3. All funds (BTC, €, etc.) are safe
  4. All incorrect transactions due to the trading engine bug were corrected

So even if genuine nothing really new anyway.


I got confirmation by the police that an investigation is ongoing. The guys at btc24-help.com are in touch with the prosecutor in Berlin and have a forum for discussions.

So we know there are some serious accusations against TAiS46, but of course he's innocent until proven guilty. It seems to be evident that some time will pass before bitcoin24 goes back online, if ever. Let's hope that Simon is indeed innocent like he has said repeatedly and that his lawyers can sort out this mess.


User TAiS46 has posted a long explanation (google translation) of what has happened to bitcoin24 on the btc24-help forums. He also says that he has pressed charges against the person who runs a facebook group determined to hunt him down. The group has some comments in very bad taste, talking about bloodhounds and calling Simon a fraudster.

This post on a forum suffers from the same problem as all other statements: it can't be verified. But it sounds believable. To me it sounds like Simon is in Germany and working with (or against) the authorities. I am shocked by how badly the whole affair was and is apparently still being handled by him.

The increasing noise and malice makes it very hard to determine which information is relevant and which not.

I and several other users received an email reply by the police in Bremen. There will be an announcement today in the Bundesanzeiger. However, there's some confusion as to if this is about bitcoin-24.com or bitcoin.de. Edit: Well, that didn't happen.

An update has been posted on the frontpage of bitcoin-24.com. The document (PDF) repeats things Simon has said previously but looks more official. It is a (not very good) German translation of what's apparently a legal document by a polish public prosecution office.

A little later another document is posted on bitcoin24. A search warrant (PDF) was apparently issued against Simon (TAiS46). The accusation is basically (rough translation by me) that he has been unable and unwilling to provide Bitcoins to his customers and intended to use received funds for personal things. The orignial document is in German.

A badly written article appeared on the german mainstream newssite Sueddeutsche.de, and another one on heise.de.


Some users claim to have gotten confirmation by the police in Bremen that investigations are ongoing. They say that the police doesn't give any more information. See also the comment by Mike. I couldn't confirm any of this yet.

MtGox doesn't comment on Simon's statement (google translate) that he works with their lawyer.

Simon's girlfriend apparently deleted her facebook account. The link was shared repeatedly by different people. I think this is very bad, there's no need to involve her or Simon's family. If people feel like doing something they should stick to the legal system. There's no need to make this personal.

Totally unrelated but maybe of interest to some: it appears that some bitcoin.de accounts were compromised and BTC withdrawn last night.


Alright, so almost five days after this whole mess started TAiS46 held a Q&A session in IRC [9]. While nothing he said can be verified by me he sounds genuine and gives useful info:

  • The hotwallet transactions that happened were in the queue and triggered by a donation
  • He plans to add a withdrawal page today
  • Withdrawing € will be possible later than the other currencies
  • 2,000,000€ are in a bank account he can still access
  • 5,000,000€ are frozen in total
  • He has hired a coder
  • 3,500,000€ are frozen in Poland

You can read all of it in the log [5] or a list of all Q&A by user orion327 on reddit.


TAiS46 posts again, it looks like reddit is now the place to get official company news.

As CoinSheep's comment points out less than 6000 BTC left bitcoin24's wallet the day of the bug. Maybe it was only around 1000 after the bug started to show. So even if some was stolen the situation is much better than I had written earlier.

Simon wrote a few tweets yesterday and a short comment to a facebook post, both aren't very interesting.

It looks like Simon registered a new subsidary of the bitcoin24 UK LTD in Germany april 11th. One can only speculate as to why.

"objection is send to the PL government! hope to get the bank account open this week. but I am sure we can clear this. I can't say a date, sorry for that."

—New post by TAiS46, nothing new

User markusmj called the law firm that was listed on the imprint page of bitcoin24. He got somebody on the phone, here's what he says [5] (nothing really new):

Ok, here we go >
They can't say a lot, but THIS lawfirm that is mentioned on the imprint has not been doing anything this
weekend, since their lawyer for "Polish Affairs' is on holiday >
nobody called their yet about bitcoin-24, we were the first to call
Frau [edit] will get back to us tomorrow, she is the laywer for "Polish affairs" in this lawfirm, she
was on holidays, so what simon says "his laywers are busy with it" is not true, or it is another lawfirm... but
not the one on his imprint
they will however say tomorrow morning more to us, they can give some statement, but they didn't know a lot
about this , so it's not that important or not a lot is known here...
could be, because "bitcoin-24" did not ring a bell to them...
could be that this is not the lawfirm of bitcoin-24 at all...
not a lot of good info... I don't trust it
so we need to know WHICH Lawfirm represents Simon !
very important, put it on the Redditss & Facebook !
but with the "flying to poland with our laywers" it's not this lawfirm...
so we need a confirmation from Simon, who actually is his "lawfirm" because the one on his imprint didn't know
anything about it
so again, the lawfirm mentioned on bitcoin-24's imprint, probably has nothing to do with it, So we need Simon
to say, which lawfirm represents him, somebody should ask this on the reddits & facebook

Markusmj is hiring this laywer who is a Polish affairs expert to find out more about the Polish bank closure, you can contact markusmj: markusmj1313 AT gmail.com.

It looks like coins are still flowing in and out of bitcoin24's hotwallet. What's going on there if the site is closed? Ralph has a possible explanation in his comment.

Later that day a rather bizarre reddit posts and some more stalling:

"hey, it is ok to go to the police or your own lawyer. at this moment it would also help us, to make a collective suit to the banks and german government."

TAiS46 after being told people want to report him

Morkel has created a new website btc24-help.com where he wants to coordinate efforts towards getting more information.

Even later more reddit posts, in one he says a withdrawal page will be up tomorrow. We'll have to see what that means.


TAiS46 made a few posts again on reddit. They seem erratic and his English isn't very good, so it's hard to say what they mean. But what I got from them is:

  • The german bank account is frozen as well as the polish one
  • There are enough funds to pay everybody

You can try to read his posts for yourself, see here and there.

Later that day he wrote another comment where he just refuses to take any responsibility for incoming phished money and blames the banks for everything:

"The Germans are now fighting against me and the "Deutsche Bank" has still the same problems, that people are sending me money from stolen bank accounts! THATS NOT MY PROBLEM!"



TAiS46 made a few posts in the morning on reddit that don't really contain anything new.

"I think that the people who know me know, that I try everything to get the business up again! And I am not the "fucker" which drives now away with YOUR money and YOUR BTC! The money and the BTC are not lost. We are still holding all the funds. The biggest problem is, that we can not access the bank account."


"I am waiting for the "go" from my lawyer to know, what I can write in the official statement I will give all users with email and on reddit."


Later, around noon, trading through the API was apparently disabled.

2013-04-12 The original post

Today some people were very upset because their bitcoin exchange bitcoin-24.com was closed [10] for five or so hours without any announcement about what had happened.

One visible problem was that there were many reports of incorrect transactions. Users getting twice (or more) the amount of BTC than they should have gotten. Then somebody reported a rather scary mysql question on stackoverflow by the user TAiS46. He is bitcoin24's developer.

This bug would lead to the problem with incorrect booking of orders. It is two months old, so it's very likely that some people have known about it, and that they gamed the site to farm free money. They might have used a flood of micro-orders to do this.

Later today the following statement appeared on the site:

Our Service is momentarily not available.
1. All funds (EUR, USD, PLN, GBP & Bitcoins) are safe.
2. All withdrawals will be gradually processed chronologically from another bank account.
3. The Polish authority closed your [sic] Bank account in Poland.
4. Our lawyers are working with high pressure on a solution.

We will back with Bitcoin-24 2.0 on when all declarations are finished.

All important Emails can be send to help@bitcoin-24.com

If somebody found a way to exploit the bug reliably and withdrew the money they made, they effectively took other user's money. This makes the "all funds are safe" claim doubtful.

Blockchain and missing money

Here's a list by z3c0 of orders that were executed more than once. This post said that around 6000 BTC had left bitcoin24's wallet, but that info was apparently incorrect, see also CoinSheep's comment below.

More scary technical info

1. Simon, bitcoin24's admin, does seem to have problems with basic coding stuff. A few weeks ago there was another stackoverflow question on rounding. He uses floats to deal with currency.

2. Late last year he apparently lost a wallet (google translate) due to missing backups.

Money laundering?

One reason for the polish bank to close the account could have been that they suspected money laundering. It was possible to withdraw cash with DHL. from bitcoin24. That seems perfect for launderers who only need a safe address to deliver to.

It was also possible to withdraw any amount of BTC, without verification. So phishers and other criminals could have deposited money from highjacked bank accounts into bitcoin24 and withdrawn BTC.

Another important question is when the account was frozen. Some users have been waiting for days for withdrawals. If bitcoin24 knew about the frozen account and didn't inform their customers... well... I'm not a lawyer but that sounds really bad.


Here are some questions I think are important:

  1. How many bugs were there that lead to booking errors?
  2. Do the cash and BTC reserves bitcoin24 holds cover the book values of the users?
  3. Since when was the polish account frozen?
  4. Will bitcoin24 require verification in the future before allowing withdrawals?

More bugs?

Here's a video that shows an accounting bug in action (presumably):

In the IRC support channel some try to defend bitcoin24 by saying that this isn't the bug that happened on the 12th, but another one. Well, so it seems there was more than one accounting bug.

[1]The app directories (most likely) contained PHP files that timed out due to... whatever. I forgot to check revision control subdirectories like .svn, .git etc. If I was more of a black hat I might have thought of this before the IP went down and gotten access to the sources. Could have been fun.
[2]The IP of the "real" server behind cloudflare had been leaked somewhen on IRC. It's not accessible any more and I don't see the need for sharing it.
[3]This was updated shortly after I wrote about it to "as soon as possible"
[4]I didn't publish this information immediately to give Simon some time to secure his stuff.
[5](1, 2, 3) Unfortunately the site that hosted the IRC logs suffered from data loss. I still have my own logs, contact me if you're interested. A new logbot without the old data has been set up by user dbhas.
[6]Full of cute errors again, and misspelling the domain name again, it's not bitcoins-24.com.
[7]You have to search for "bitcoin sicherungsmaßnahmen" on the site. The Bundesanzeiger website was intentionally designed to make permanent links impossible...
[8]It's a little funny how many errors are in the mail + letter. And it's about bitcoin-24.com, not bitcoin24.com...
[9]From his usual host and identified with nickserv.
[10]Well, not entirely closed. API users could apparently still trade, which could have given them an unfair advantage. And maybe the opportunity to exploit the bug longer. Update The API access was apparently closed in the morning of april 13th.


  1. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    It will be interesting to see what happens. Either we will see a default, or bitcoin-24 will pay everybody and resume trade when this almost force majure situation is over. If I did my due diligence less than a week ago correct, everybody will be paid. If bitcoin-24 wants to continue after all the accusations, I am not sure...
  2. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    @the previous poster: that's a pretty optimistic view considering all the things that might have gone wrong. Remember that his exchange system seems not to be really tight on security and bitcoin is a playground of hackers, drug dealers, tax evaders, and all the folk interested in laundering their money, which they might have made through even killing some people. If you were dealing on BTC24 (and Mt.Gox), you were gambling using the same services as some Russian or Italian or Chinese mafiosi alongside the "creme-de-la-creme" of international cybercriminals, all of them eager to shift coins around and get everyone else's... with the exchange operator obviously neither a banking nor an IT expert, running this as a hobby. Which makes it even worse, if his statements are true concerning not making a dime with this exchange. This also means he has not collected a financial safety cushion. A simple example I made up in my mind. His bank account "Simon Hausberg" - who prevents someone maliciously dealing on ebay with non-existing iPhones, asking users to pay for them using wire transfer to this exchange, to their accounts. They could then convert the cash of their victims into BTC, and withdraw their coins within a millisecond to the Bahamas... the question is not, IF this will happen, it's just WHEN - and I am sure it HAS already happened. I doubt Simon could handle such a situation in any way. Welcome to the bitcoin world - I don't say it's bad from a technical viewpoint, but it is very appealing for the same people and same reasons as TOR...
  3. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I know the owner says that the funds are safe, but considering that transactions are non-reversible(?) unless he's got a huge pile of cash of his own for everyone or a government deposit guarantee, my guess is that the money is gone at least in part.
  4. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    To sum the situation up, Simon seems like a nice guy... but maybe not fit for running a site handling huge amounts of money (not considering security enough, both from a technical and a legal standpoint): 1. They seem to blame stuff on the Polish bank account closure. (which they failed to inform about earlier on) Im wondering if this account might not have been closed because of someone taking measures when they left the bug unfixed. 2. THE bug, which was left unfixed. I think this is the point that people are more worried about and would like to hear more about, rather than the Polish bank issue which I'm sure won't leave anyone without their money in the end... unless it's already spent, due to the bug... Freezing the account might rather be stopping money from going where it shouldn't go. The theories about closing the account to prevent money laundering seem more unlikely, in that case I think they'd more likely have given the exchange a chance to comply with a requirement of identifying payers just like in the case of many other exchanges lately. I'm a bit worried that Simon is a bit stressed out from last weeks huge surge in activity on the site and not really thinking clearly. (Maybe running an exchange isn't a one man's job.) This could explain why the site wasn't closed in spite of the bug, cause I can't see him gaining anything from leaving it out in the open. Shifting focus to the Polish bank issue (which may or may not have been caused by someone taking measures because of the unfixed bug) is probably a way to gain some breathing space in a very pressed situation. I must say, I feel very sorry for both Simon and everyone else who's potentially lost a lot of money. I potentially lost some 15% of my BTC myself, but luckily got most out of there by mere luck (unaware of the problem) just before the closure of the exchange. In fact I'm not sure if I actually lost anything or if I just imagined having more BTC due to the bug. Hope we'll know more tomorrow... take care!
  5. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    To some extent part of the bitcoin community is responsible for these events, because it failed to inform properly the investors for the existing and potential safety risks associated with this exchange. In the bitcoin wiki for example, Bitcoin-24 is described as "the biggest bitcoin exchange in Europe and is only surpassed by MtGox in terms of EURO volume". There is no mention at all for any past or present problems or potential weaknesses of this exchange. To summarize part of the lacking information from the bitcoin wiki about Bitcoin-24: 1. The exchange is run by one person as a hobby like project. 2. It has technical glitches in the trading engine. 3. The (main) developer is not sufficiently technically competent/experienced to write reliable code for financial exchange. 4. The exchange was compromised once - http://openruby.com/bitcoin/pages/8139747-mysqli-31-dot-10-dot-2012-server-attack-help-desk If the bitcoin community wants to create a more healthy trustworthy atmosphere for the outside investors it needs to communicate more openly ALL KNOW AND POTENTIAL SAFETY RISKS associated with the exchanges it lists on official or semi official bitcoin sites.
  6. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I totally agree, the biggest problem is communication. The developer is incompetent, and there is some hostility when you want to discuss this. Bitcoin24 also does a lousy PR job, there is no usable info at all from the owner. Another problem is the bitcoin wiki you mentioned: it's not a wiki at all. The people who run it aren't interested in good content. They want to make money (coins) with the wiki. You have to pay to edit content, see https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/BitcoinPayment I have been accused of being a troll and spreading misinformation, but I only try to collect the best intel I can find as I invested in bitcoin24. Fortunately only a very small sum.
  7. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I see quite a little too much bias in your post, Mr. Kuttler. First: The money laundering argument with DHL fails, because the maximum withdraw was 500 Euro per day so it would take 100 days continously withdrawing to laundry 50k euro, which is still not that much. Besides that the fees would kill you. Simon is a very honest and trustworthy guy and he built this site with the basic bitcoin principles in mind. It was initially designed as a Mt. Gox counterpart with NO trading fees at all. MT. Gox is on the same polish bank as bitcoin-24 was but their account did not get locked. Not saying that you are a troll, but your post is very negative and helps spreading panic. This is totally unneccessary.
  8. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Yes, it's a negative post. That's because I see a history of technical incompetence, sweeping things under the rug, and not taking responsibility. Simon blames the banks and says it's not his problem when people send stolen money to bitcoin24. Yes it is if he makes it easy. There is no verification of users at all. And like I said, communication is at the core of the problem. Simon simply does a lousy job at disclosing any information. I wouldn't have needed to write this post if he had informed us properly.
  9. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Oh right, the DHL isn't the only route either. Phished money in, anonymous bitcoin withdrawal, convert to currency somewhere else.
  10. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi, I have to clear some things up. As you mentioned in your post, I said on IRC that around 6000 BTC left the Hotwallet that day and well.. I was wrong. I also included incoming transfers in my first calculation (oops) and actually "only" 4800 BTC left the Hotwallet (see: http://hastebin.com/hunetanuyo.pl). However I don't think that the trading engine bug was a big problem at all. If you look at z3c0's paste, you can see that double trades started to occur at 12:00 and the last withdrawel was at 11:03, so all money seems to be still in the system. I hope this helps some people to calm down a little ;) Thx for your blog! Keep us updated.
  11. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thanks very much for the comment. I'll update the post
  12. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thank you Nicolas for the outstanding work in keeping track on the updates on this situation. It's many of us out there and this website is one of my reference points to get updates on this very matter.
  13. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thank you!
  14. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    it'd be very helpful for the poster to repeat the above at the appropriate reddit sites, where people are also being stirred into a panic by speculation and misinformation...
  15. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Can you point to anything specific? I don't know where this was mentioned.
  16. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thanks for keeping us updated. I looked at he ins and outs of his account on blockchain, but it seems everytime somebody still donates to bitcoin 24 the payment continue. Because a friend of mine tried to get his bitcoins back at the moment he saw the trading errors last friday. before the site went down. But did not get them at that moment, but last evening suddenly he still got them. So its the que from withdraws from last friday which you now see processed on blockchain everytime there are enough bitcoins available on that adress.
  17. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Ah, very interesting, thanks! Still a little odd that more than 400BTC changed hands in the last 24 hours if I am reading the blockchain correctly. It also looks like this has almost completely stopped today, but I'm not sure which timezone is displayed...
  18. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    It looks like the 400BTC came from one of bitcoin24's coldwallets. Maybe there was a test run of a new engine that went through the withdrawal queue. Or something.
  19. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    The list of trades is incomplete. I know of several faulty trades that are missing. Also, the bug has most likely been present from the beginning and errors may have happend all the time but just with a lower probability than when mtgox was closed and all that volume hit bitcoin-24.
  20. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Simon has just answered some questions on IRC: http://area404.nl/irc/%23bitcoin24/2013-04-16.html
  21. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Yes, thanks. Post updated.
  22. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    If you look at the bitcoin24 case this is all a mess. I agree with almost everything you wrote Nicolas. The MAIN problem is the lack of communication. And even when Simon communicates, the way how he does it lets me assume that he is not realizing in which deep problems he already is. (Seriously - he holds around 2-3 million EUR ransom and if you look at his chat yesterday night there are smilies here and there as this would all be a funny joke!) Its also not really relevant if Simon THINKS he did nothing wrong. We should be entitled to get daily updates from a spokesperson that is capable of better than German Highschool English. Not on Reddit, twitter or somewhere, but on the website of bitcoin24. Does he really think that telling us daily "There will be an update once the lawyer approves it" will keep us calm for the next few days? Of course not! An "official" lawyer approved statement should have been given already on Friday, latest yesterday (Monday) Whats the holdup? If this will not come soon, Simon will need to deal with 2 types of persons.... the first (like me) would be starting to press charges for (online) fraud, and the others (not me) are those types of clients that I dont want to meet in person - because they dont care to go to police or lawyers, but they like to take "matters into their own hands" So, Simon - if you read this - just imagine what a big bank with lots of client accounts would do if their online banking would not be available. We expect you to do the same. So only working behind the scenes, pointing fingers at authorities, banks etc. is not enough. Information is the key. And to use your own words - THAT IS YOUR PROBLEM. Even if you feel mistreated. Just imagine somebody gives you 100EUR to deliver it personally to a third party. If you loose the money on the way - you are still liable for it. You cannot just claim, I lost it / was robbed etc. Its on you to give it back.
  23. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Ronny, the only one spreading panic is Simon himself with his below sub standard information policy. Guess why Mt. Gox account wasn't closed despite being at the same bank. Because they did client verification. I even agree that most probably Simon is an honest guy - but running a multi million euro exchange platform is just out of his league!
  24. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Useful information. Will allow me to quote from our partners. We are a group of people who are working on a platform to coordinate efforts for the victims of the murderer. Contact. [edit] Thank you.
  25. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I removed your email address because I'm not sure who you are and there are too many scams going around.
  26. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    At this address: http://btc24-help.com/ you can find a newly born support group for Simon Hausdorf's Bitcoin-24 victims.
  27. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Simon says this was some random wallet and he doesn't know who sent the BTC. See also the post for an update on this.
  28. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    btc24-help Looks like a Good Way to collect data for Spammer
  29. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    They actually seem quite legitimate to me. Plus, no specific information is requested from users there. As a side note regarding last update on bitcoin.de, I would advise Nicolas to keep this page strictly related to the Bitcoin-24 matter, while thanking him once more for the valuable work he's doing here.
  30. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I've met the guys behind btc24-help.com in IRC. Of course I don't know them personally but they have put quite some time into this and seem genuine. And really... how useful are a few hundred email addresses... Spookyrufus, don't worry, I'm not planning on writing anything else about bitcoin.de.
  31. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    News from German police- I just got off the phone with the German Police in Bremen. It is true - they are aware of the case and investigations are taking place. However, some interesting news: - the Commerzbank account doesn't seem to be closed/blocked (At least the police guy asked me "how told you that the account is blocked" --> which is an indication to me that this is not the case) - Police wont say anything regarding this case - unless you press charges against Simon, than you are allowed to see the police file. - Simon is not residing in Bremen anymore. ( If Police knows where he is, if he "just" moved to another city - they could not (as in where not allowed) tell me) I now have sent another (not the first) email to the address mentioned on bitcoin24-com for some sort of clarification and have set a deadline for friday. If by friday there is no reply from Simon, I will file a report at the local police station. This is going on way to long in a very unprofessional way!
  32. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I have sent 20 BTC to bitcoin-24, just to distribute the risk in case of another crash, to have higher chance of at least one of the exchanges working (so, bitcoin24 and bitstamp). I have not done any trade with it, therefore I have nothing to do with neither the bank closure, neither with trading engine bug. It just seems reasonable. I have sent Simon an email (same mail as the account is registered with) with the address to send my BTC to. I have gotten no response to date, and I consider this very unprofessional. I am a student and quite serious with the intent of pressing charges. I am giving him time till Friday, maybe even Monday to respond or establish withdraw service (which he promised today, btw). If not, then the consequences are clear.
  33. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Whatever you do, please tell us more about it once you do. There are probably different things people should do, depending on which country they live in.
  34. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Just wanted to know you're doing great work keeping us up to date. If I ever see my money back, make sure to include an address to tip to.
  35. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thank you! It's getting harder and harder to figure out what to post. There's so much trolling around this whole issue. There's a donation link in the post meta info above the comments. It's tiny.. maybe I should make it bigger :-D It's 1NG8BfDzequeiCDewn7v2AF4FcBKGxzKkH for BTC anyway.
  36. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I think Simon himself said the Commerzbank account isn't blocked. Was that not the case?
  37. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thanks for the updates, it seems like loads of people are using your site for the 'ultimate' info on this subject. Good job!
  38. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thank you!
  39. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thank you for keeping track of this case. Im usually refreshing this page to see what the latest news is. Thank you for helping us out by contributing your time :)
  40. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    "According to TheAviator Simon has said that he will get permission to release BTC soon." Its official: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/2329063/Stellungnahme_26.04.2013.pdf
  41. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Certainly. The document is linked to right below the text you quoted. I was thinking about reversing the order of intra-day postings, but meh...
  42. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Why are balances displayed for users logged into bitcoin-24.com, but not the transaction history? My displayed balance is almost 1400 EUR lower than the last values I noted before trading was halted. This could be explained by an alleged bug in the trading engine, but the easiest and most obvious route to verify this, allowing me to see the trades bitcoin-24.com executed to arrive at this balance, are not available. Wouldn't it be in the interest of bitcoin-24 to allow customers to understand their numbers?
  43. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Yeah, the current situation is far from satisfactory... For you it's the missing logs, for me it's a wire transfer that's not accounted for and missing BTC.
  44. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I sent a transfer to the polish account a few days before shutdown, that never appeared in the balance, and its also not there now. Should the deposits already be in there?
  45. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    That's a very good question, I'm wondering about that myself. For me it was the german account..
  46. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hey, I'm visiting your blog since the bitcoin24 goes down..yesterday i was able like many to withdraw my btc from the page..Like i was a newbie on btc world i didn't save any screenshot or anything that can help with the problem..I don't have a work right now and so i don't have a lot of money and a small part was on the page,when the crash comes(price drop) i lost like 400E and some part was from the lag the page has cause it was almost impossible to trade and i think that was for the machine bug too..The day that the trade machine went crazy i was in the page like 24h and i dunno how many transaction i was doing in that time cause i was thinkin just to get some loss back!anyway i remember that my btc was 5.6 and fiat 100+ euros and these because of the engine problem but it WASN'T all my transactions duplicated or dunno what..i think that in that way i'm loosing more money cause that day it was at 70e the price and now it's 100+ euro..now my balance is 45euros fiat and 1.35btc like wtf?it wasn't all trades duplicaded they can just delete the duplicate transacion but not the good one!what can i do about that?cause now i don't have nothing saved,i can't see my transaction history jst to see what they do and i'm not a machine to remember all of my transaction...all this story is getting everytime with more problems!and YES now i'm really thinkin that Simon is incompetent to do that work...i can't pay everytime that a machine has a problem,it's not my problem it was the machine from btc24 why i must loose money or btc?wtf...it has no logic at all! (hope you can understand what i wrote,sorry for my english) and thank you for infos about btc24..hope i get an answer cause i dunno what to do...
  47. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I'm still waiting for any news about two large transfers amounting to over £17,000 in UK pounds days before the close that have just 'disappeared'. My banks in UK say the money has left and have washed their hands of it and there is no-one at BTC24 to take responsibility or give any information nearly 3 weeks after the transfer as to the state of the funds. The levels of ineptitude in all of this is pretty scandalous, ill-thought out with a Kafka-esque level of bureaucracy. Real people are involved in all of this and real lives are being affected while Banks and Governments play power games and drag their feet. Thank you Nicolas for all of your endeavours in all of this.
  48. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I guess I was one of the lucky ones, sort of. My balance is OK, BTC and EUR, I guess it had something to do with the fact that I only do manual trading and when I noticed that something was going wrong, I cancelled all the pending operations (EUR transfers and BTC buy/sell orders). I have successfully withdraw the BTC from the account also, but the EUR's as y'all know are still there :|
  49. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Yeah i agree tha bureaucracy is a big problem and that goverments and banks want to enter into "bitcoin game" but in that moment I trully believe that Simon don't know what to do and that is the biggest problem..I think that all this shit is a little bit easier to find a solution..and that you say about bureaucracy and authorities + the incompetence of Bitcoin24 we will lose a lot of money!
  50. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    > Some users also have all their fiat money accounted for, but where are all the missing deposits? Are there also people with missing euro withdrawels, like me? I did a withdrawel of euro's in march, of which I got an e-mail confirmation from bitcoin-24 on the 4th of april, but the money was never added to my bankaccount. However the withdrawel also never got canceled and wasn't added to my euro balance (which is 0).
  51. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    My € are also missing, but I deposited right before the site went down. But I think I've heard from others that have the same problem as you. Maybe somebody in the btc24-help forum knows.
  52. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I've received my btc. No weird balances, those were much as I remembered them. At absolute worst there are €200 missing. Th btc amount was exact to the last satoshi.
  53. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Bitcoin-24.com now has a new link to an external, ticket-based support system. I opened a ticket asking the kinds of things probably most customers want to know: Where are the transaction logs, how do we agree on correct balances, what other bank accounts and what account holders are involved in the bitcoin-24 business, and will there be interest payments on funds temporarily withheld from customers. Somehow this is costing too much of my time and keeps me from working more on my own bitcoin website!
  54. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I am one of those still waiting for btcs... worth noting that the 'dispute' button you mentioned 2 days ago has been added in the form of 'support ticket'. I think it is a good sign, an indication that bitcoin-24 does respond to community requests.
  55. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    there is a ticket system now
  56. avatar
    wrote this comment on
  57. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Have been waiting for 4 days for my BTC withdrawal. Still nothing.
  58. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    My Fiat money deposit also arrived now :)
  59. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Good for you! Still nothing for me, we'll see...
  60. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I withdrew about 4 BTC on May 2nd at 22:15. Still did not get them until today (7th May 00:30). I wrote two tickets (one after 30 hours of no response and another one after 90 hours of no response), which were both not answered. I fear my coins are lost... PS: Blockchain.info says nothing has ever been sent to my withdraw address.
  61. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I wouldn't give up hope yet, but I understand that Simon's slow response times, false promises and general lack of communication can be very discouraging.
  62. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I know it doesn't mean much, but I hope you will keep updating this page. It is in fact the reference point for many of us out there. I am astonished how badly things are handled by Bitcoin-24 even weeks after the crash. They should have quit sleeping to look after their customers and instead they keep providing the most vague informations. It is undeniable though that there has been measurable progress. Keep up the good work man, I will keep checking this page like 30 times a day.
  63. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thanks for your kind words! I will certainly keep posting updates. It's just looks like we'll be getting a trickle of news through the twitter account, and I don't plan on repeating everything that's said there.
  64. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I withdrew about 200 BTC on May 1st. Still nothing received after 13 days, although the confirmation with the BTC Transfer Code and the reduction of my withdraw on my account balance were promising actions of a good working system ...
  65. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Good luck man!
  66. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Where did you hear about the announcement on friday? Thanks
  67. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Ah right, from the lawyer's site, it's in German. Added a link.
  68. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    "Around 2.5 million € were confiscated..." Hey could you clarify whether they were confiscated or frozen on the account? Thanks...
  69. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Yeah, frozen is probably the better word. Not sure how to translate "vorläufig gesichert" otherwise.
  70. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Maybe a better translation is "provisionally impounded." As I understand it (not being familiar with the law), the intent was not to confiscate it but to take expressly temporary custody of the funds to prevent the operator running away with the funds before people accusing him of fraud had a chance to make their case heard by authorities. So more than just frozen (albeit technically practically the same, I guess), but less than confiscated.
  71. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thanks for your input!
  72. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I'm still missing: * one SEPA deposit to the Bank Zachodni account, made April 6th * five SEPA deposits to the CommerzBank account, all made April 11th By "missing" I mean I've never had deposit confirmation e-mails nor have these been credited to my balance. Other SEPA deposits (all those sent to CommerzBank before April 11th, plus a few sent on April 12th) did generate belated e-mails and did get credited (on May 1st). Tickets raised on kayako before the licence expiry (one for all CommerzBank deposits, one for the Bank Zachodni deposit) never got answered. I've e-mailed RDP after they suggested raising issues with them by e-mail, but haven't had a reply. Given Bitcoin-24's track record, it makes me a little nervous that some customers might be getting euros before all of my deposits have been credited. I worry that another customer may well get my euros if/when withdrawals start getting processed.
  73. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    That's interesting, I never tried to contact RDP. It's worrysome that you didn't get a reply to anything yet. I totally understand your concerns. The current situation is really ridiculous.
  74. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Nobody cares anymore ? Nobody had fiat money ?
  75. avatar
    wrote this comment on
  76. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Nicolas I had the same problems with withdrawal as you. I just wrote the correct amount in withdrawal notes and they sent me back everything including SEPA fees.
  77. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Interesting, thanks for the info. I'll have to see what happens..
  78. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I've been quiet and waiting since this happened, have about 10k there. Is there anything I can now do, considering this isn't going to be resolved anytime soon apparently?
  79. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Well, you could talk to a lawyer I guess.
  80. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    For what it is worth, I got this reply on Aug 13 only after I sent 10 or so emails from my server directly, 4 or so from their contact page and maybe 6 or so directly from my mail clients to their direct email bitcoin@rdp-law.de. I sent all these at the same time and do not know which email they responded to. Dear Duncan, we are very sorry that you didn’t get your bitcoins until now. Our client promised us to transfer them – please be sure that we’ll do everything within our power to speed things up here. We understand your frustration and we can ensure you, that we are also not satisfied with the fact that there are still bitcoin-transfers not processed. As soon as we have news we’ll inform you. Kind regards Michaela Berger Attorney at law Röhl · Dehm & Partner Rechtsanwälte Moritzplatz 6 86150 Augsburg www.rdp-law.de Telefon: 0821 / 319 53 88 Telefax: 0821 / 319 53 89 E-Mail : info@rdp-law.de Amtsgericht Augsburg Registernummer PR 68
  81. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Yeah, that sounds really disconcerting... how long after your initial email did they respond? I'm not surprised that they are dissatisfied themselves. Their client apparently not only doesn't work properly on fixing his customers problems, but he also makes them look bad in the process.
  82. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    bitcoin withdrawals are no longer working. The last one from the hotwallet was 08-28: http://blockchain.info/fb/1btc24y I have 0.49 bitcoins stuck in limbo now.
  83. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Looks like this has changed again :-) Good luck!
  84. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    From http://blockchain.info/fb/1btc24y?offset=2740&filter=1 one sees that since April 12, 2013 a total of 2742 transfers have been executed from Bitcoin 24 to other addresses. If this is the only address from which Simon does the payouts and if most users have gotten their bitcoins back, one might infer that around 2740 users still have fiat stuck on the Polish account. Could this number be realistic? If 3.5 million € is the total fiat claim of all Bitcoin 24 users that have sent money to the Polish account, those users have invested 1'277 € on average (assuming an unrealistic uniform distribution)...
  85. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi Nicolas, don't you post my last comment? In this comment I wondered if one could infer the number of people still having money in the Polish account by looking at how many bitcoin transfers have been executed from Bitcoin 24's bitcoin address. By looking at: http://blockchain.info/fb/1btc24y?offset=2740&filter=1. One sees that 2'742 transfers have been executed after April 12, 2013. As a results not more than 2'742 people should have money on the Polish account. Could this be realistic?
  86. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Sorry, missed it. Public now but no time to reply :-)
  87. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi Nicolas, I like your blog very much. Always up to date and accurate :) If I understood correctly you already got all of your fiat out of bitcoin 24. Do you also have the chance to vote in the poll?
  88. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi Dan, excellent question. Yes, I did indeed see the poll and got the opportunity to vote. To be sure I just voted for the third option.
  89. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi Nicolas, Simon has updated the text of option #3 of the poll. You could update today's post ;) The closing date of the poll is still unchanged and wrong... Regards, Dan
  90. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Oops, had forgotten to approve this comment. Thanks for the hint anyway :)
  91. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I still haven't obtain my bitcoins, the one I requested withdrawal back in April/May. One ticket raised, two letters sent to the lawyer, a complete silence for a couple of months. As much as I was understanding to Simon, he left me no choice but to consider this to be scam. I am taking a lawyer and we'll meet in the court, sorry I cannot see any other option.
  92. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi Nicolas, The helpdesk is finally online again. I assume users will be asked to use the helpdesk to upload their documents in order to request a fiat withdrawal. It would not make sense to implement a further document upload functionality for the bitcoin 24 website. Regards, Dan
  93. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Good luck!
  94. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi Dan, thanks for the update!
  95. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hey, I still got BTC on my account. How can I transfer it to another account? I tested it twice with a small amount but it didn't work.
  96. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    No idea tbh. Right now the help desk is the only option afaik, and there should be more people working on it... good luck!
  97. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I hope so. I wrote to message to the ticket. Still no amswer.
  98. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Thanks Nicholas for the Blog. Just logged into my account and completed the identity details via Verification. Bingo - "Thank you for submitting your information. We will review them asap. Uploaded 2 300dpi jpg files to prove Identity and Residency. In each routine the green bar lit up and at the end of the upload process the yellow CANCEL tab becomes a red DELETE tab ? What's going on ? I'm stuck ! So I try to send a ticket and what do I get but: "Invalid email or password". I then try the Forgotten Password facility and I get: "We encountered a problem (unable to find a user account with email address xyz@gmail.com) WHERE DO YOU GO FROM HERE......?? Anyone
  99. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hrm, no idea to be honest, I've never heard of this problem before. Can't you register a new user for the helpdesk?
  100. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    I finally had success with fiat withdrawal :-) 72% of my Euro have been transferred to my bank account.
  101. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Still waiting on transfer of funds from Poland. After waiting and getting a ticket and going through the flawed verification process and jumping that hurdle, eventually I got an email back in March to say that 72% of my balance would be transferred. That was over 2 months ago, nothing has arrived, I can't log on to the old site and no-one is responding to my return emails to the automated message chasing this up. It's a huge amount of money for me and I feel angry that no-one is taking any of this seriously, taking the old site offline, setting up a new one and just ignoring innocent customers in all of this.
  102. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hey, sorry, I forgot to approve comments for a while. I'm shocked that you still haven't been paid your 72% at least. Personally I'm just lucky I didn't have any fiat in the exchange. If I had, i would have contacted a lawyer a long time ago. Are you aware of http://bitcoin24-support.boards.net/ ?
  103. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    They are going belly up once again. Withdrawals are completely halted and staff have been ignoring tickets and chat for days, even before the weekend. "If our system is not consistent, it will automatically stop the BTC withdrawals and an alarm will ring in our office and the technical support will alarmed on their mobile-phones" This seems like a joke. Dont ever use this site, it smells like scam all over.
  104. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    The new btc24? Yeah, I'm not really surprised. I have never used the new site, but have heard from several users that it takes them weeks to answer simple support questions, etc. Considering the history of the old site, I can't understand why anybody would trust the "new" one.
  105. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Do you guys remember how Simons last message back in December was, the case is going to Szczecin, because the prosecutor in Gorzow Wlkp. is incompetent? Well, my layer finally got a partial look at the case files and guess what: 1. The case is still in Gorzow 2. The charge is money laundering and terrorist financing 3. Nobody showed up for the last hearings
  106. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Has anyone received their bcs? Thats really the worst. I tried to transfer it and then they were gone. The ticket i wrote was never answered...
  107. avatar
    wrote this comment on
    Hi there, this weekend is fastidious in support of me, for the reason that this moment i am reading this enormous educational piece of writing here at my home.


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